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The Survey of the Mauser 'Banner' V series in this Forum is now active since November 2005. Many members have been so kind to give me the SN's and basic properties of the pistols they own, or that they been have able to find in other sources.
I have presented at the 2006 SE Napca Convention an overview of my findings so far. In view of my promise that I would also publish these on this forum, you find hereunder the actual results of my research. These might help when studying a Mauser commercial or contract Luger having a Serial Number between 1v and 9999v.
This is only an interim report, I did not find yet answers to all the questions, so please go on sending me the properties of any Mauser Luger within this Series that is not yet reported correctly in the listing.
Updates, Revisions:
When new information becomes available the information below wil be updated.
Hereunder you can see the dates of the updates, and the chapter(s) that were reviewed.
09/01/2006: 4. - 6. - 12.
09/07/2006: 8.
10/02/2006: 17.
11/04/2006: 10. - 25.
03/25/2007: 11. - 17. - 24. plus some minor text corrections.
04/19/2007: 17.
09/02/2007: 9. Dutch Navy 1936 with date on chamber, 1937 having a 'v' suffix.
10/11/2007: 9. Persian Lugers have a '+' for factory inspection mark.
02/02/2008: 18. SN 3294v is reported from Spain.
04/06/2008: 10. New evidence found.
05/23/2008: 9. - 17. - 18. - 20. Small corrections
05/23/2008: 21. New insight on 'Swiss' frames
1. DWM Luger production goes to Mauser (1929 - 1930).
In 1928, the BKIW/DWM management proposed to cut the nominal value of the shares in half. Most shareholders are not happy with this, during the annual meeting the sitting board of directors is replaced by mayor shareholders. They decide to nominate Günther Quandt, the successful manager/owner of the AFA battery factory, as the new president of this board.
[img]images/icon_paperclip.gif[/img] Quandt.jpg
Günther Quandt, 07.28.1881 in Pritzwalk; â€* 12.30.1954 in Cairo.
Picture taken in 1937.
Günther Quandt started an investigation of the situation of the BKIW/DWM concern. It showed out that the activities were far from profitable, reorganization was inevitable. Quandt replaced the manager (Paul von Gontard) with a management of three directors, and decided to end the production of all weapons in Berlin moving it to Mauser Werke in Oberndorf, of which all shares were owned by BKIW/DWM since 1898.
[img]images/icon_paperclip.gif[/img] BKIWOrg.jpg
Negotiations between both managements started November 1929. DWM was not at all happy to lose the Luger production and Mauser was secretly working on a pistol that should replace the Luger as the official Army sidearm. Anyway the orders had to be fulfilled, and the move of the production facilities started in February, the transports ended in May 1930.
2. What moved from Berlin to Oberndorf?:
- Standard machinery and about 650 appliances to produce 50 Lugers a day
- The tool room examples of seven different Luger models
- Raw steel material
- Many thousands of Luger parts, finished or partly finished
- 4,000 finished Lugers (mostly 'in the white' and proofed in Berlin with Crown/N)
- August Weiss, since 1922 the chief weapon maker of DWM, he would stay in Oberndorf to the end (1946).
3. SN's of C/N proofed Lugers that came from Berlin to Oberndorf:
Certain: 1v - 560v (of which 3 lined Stoegers 400v - 524v)
Probable: 6650u - 9999u
4. DWM versus Mauser barrels.
There were two types of barrels that moved from DWM to Mauser.
a. Having a dull barrel band (mostly mounted on the 'U' series)
b. Having a sharp barrel band, as seen on the Dutch Navy Lugers (DWM 1928-1930).
[img]images/icon_paperclip.gif[/img] 2BarrelBands.jpg
-SN 1384- SN 8913u
Dutch Navy both made in 1929 by DWM
[img]images/icon_paperclip.gif[/img] BarrelBandK-date.jpg
Barrel Band of K-date
Could have been made by Mauser, or taken from the stock of DWM made barrels.
[img]images/icon_paperclip.gif[/img] BarrelBand1939.jpg
Barrel Band of Mauser production (Banner 1938).
Conclusions:
DWM made barrels with a sharp barrel band as from 1928. They were mounted on the Dutch East Indies and Navy contracts, and also on the 'v' suffixed series that came assembled and C/N proofed from Berlin to Oberndorf.
DWM mounted barrels with a dull barrel band on the Lugers of the 'U' series that came assembled from Berlin to Oberndorf, but some pistols of these series were reported to have a sharp barrel band too.
Many barrels with a sharp barrel band came as readied parts from DWM to Mauser. It is not known if Mauser produced any barrels with a sharp barrel band in Oberndorf.
The barrels that unmistakenly are produced by Mauser, have a dull barrel band. These appear on Banners as from 1936.
[img]images/icon_paperclip.gif[/img] GraphicBarrelBands.jpg
Time table for the use of sharp / dull barrel bands, and the C/N versus Cc/U proof stamps.
5. DWM made frames versus Mauser made frames:
These are easy to recognize. Mauser produced frames have always a dimple (hole) on top of the stock lug rail. It is probable that this was a fixing point, used during the production / finishing of the frames.
[img]images/icon_paperclip.gif[/img] StockLugRails.jpg
Left: DWM frame, Right: Mauser frame.
A bit more complicated is the difference between the DWM and Mauser frames as the top rear end of the frame is examined. In 1931 the German Army published ordnance, stating that the frame of the P.08 pistol should be lengthened with 1 millimeter, in order to prevent the toggle axle of escaping during the uppermost position of the toggle.
Here are the figures:
Frame length DWM made: 129.0mm (5.078”)
Frame length Mauser made: 130.0mm (5.118”)
The Ordnance was implied by Mauser in 1934, when the K-date Military Lugers were produced. However, Mauser experimented at that time with two designs.
[img]images/icon_paperclip.gif[/img] FrameDWM.jpg
a. DWM frame, Dutch Navy 1929, length 129mm
[img]images/icon_paperclip.gif[/img] FrameMauser.jpg
b. Mauser Frame, K-date 1934, no hump, length 130mm
[img]images/icon_paperclip.gif[/img] FrameMauserHump.jpg
c. Mauser Frame, Dutch Navy 1940, hump, length 130mm at the hump, 129mm under the hump.
Conclusions:
Mauser produced frames only as from 1934, until that time DWM frames were used.
Mauser experimented with two designs. During 1934 these were both used for the K-dates, after that the Mauser hump was not used for the Military contracts until 1937. The commercial pistols of the 'V' series however, can have the Mauser hump as early as 1936.
[img]images/icon_paperclip.gif[/img] GraphicFrames.jpg
Time table for the use of short (DWM) and long (Mauser) frames, with or without Hump.
6. Shaved or non- shaved, that is the question....
Many DWM frames have a flattened appearance on the front of the frame, as if it was filed or milled off. At first sight it seems that an existing Serial Number was removed in order to renumber the frame. This is seems not always the case, a close examination of many of these so called 'shaved' in the early 'V'frames did not show even the slightest remains of an earlier serialization. Furthermore, the lengths of these shaved frames are exactly 129mm, just like the unshaved examples.
As from the Dutch East Indies contract (1928) DWM started to give the front of the frames this treatment, and also the frames of some (Police H.P. marked) pistols in the 'U' series were reportedly 'shaved'. Why this was done is not known.
[img]images/icon_paperclip.gif[/img] FrameShavedDWM.jpg
DWM made frame Dutch East Indies contract, 1928, shaved.
[img]images/icon_paperclip.gif[/img] FrameUnshavedDWM.jpg
DWM made frame SN 8913u, 1929 not shaved.
[img]images/icon_paperclip.gif[/img] FrameUnshavedMauser.jpg
Mauser made frame Sn 3620v, 1936 not shaved.
Conclusions:
When DWM started to use the sharp barrel band design, it also started to shave the front of the frame. It is not known why this was done. Typically is however, that DWM frames with a shaved front were used in combination with a barrel that has a sharp barrel band.
We find shaved DWM frames in the 'V' series used until 1934, thru the so called Oberndorf commercial series (630v - 1506v).
A few shaved frames in the 'U' series are reported to be 0,24mm shorter as the front of the receiver above them. As the 'u' suffix is stamped here on the rounded part of the trigger guard, this certainly looks like a DWM operation aimed at renumbering these frames, while the suffix was not changed. Apparently, more research is needed before a final verdict can be concluded.
7. The logo stamps on the toggle, DWM and three different Banners:
The completed pistols that came from DWM had all the DWM logo on the toggle, Swiss-Stoeger-Dutch Navy contracts), and Mauser used DWM marked toggles on early commercials to SN 1902v.
There are three different Banner designs that can be recognized by counting the lines above and below the word 'Mauser';
Banner 8 lines from 1519v to 2570v to 1936
Banner 5 lines from 2571v to 5261v to 1938
S/42 from 5216v to 5569v during 1938
Banner 7 lines from 5527v to the end (1942)
[img]images/icon_paperclip.gif[/img] BannerDWM.jpg
DWM logo as seen on Mauser (high quality finished) Lugers
[img]images/icon_paperclip.gif[/img] Banner8.jpg
Banner with 8 lines, as seen on early banners and Portuguese and Turkish Police 1935 contracts.
[img]images/icon_paperclip.gif[/img] Banner5.jpg
Banner with 5 lines, as seen on 'v' series until approx. 5261v
[img]images/icon_paperclip.gif[/img] Banner7.jpg
Banner with 7 lines, as seen on all further Mauser commercial Lugers as from SN 5527v.
Conclusions:
The use of the logos on the toggle has a firm time - related pattern. When you see one of these logo's, you can be fairly sure about the moment that the Luger was proofed and issued. The use does not follow always the serialization. Some Lugers having a low SN, were assembled much later, the Logo is a fairly secure way of timing.
The use of the (military) S/42 logo seems to have taken place when the stock of 5 lined Banners was exhausted, other explanations are difficult to find.
[img]images/icon_paperclip.gif[/img] GraphicBanners.jpg
Graphic of the use of the toggle logo markings on the SN's.
8. The commercial proof markings:
We are lucky that the Crown/N proof markings that were struck in Berlin on the DWM produced Lugers are different from the (double) Crown/U marks, in use until 1940 by the Oberndorf Proof House. This fact helps us to find out which Lugers came assembled from DWM (Berlin) to Mauser(Oberndorf).
The German Proof law of 1893 is very clear about the circumstances that must occur at the moment the proof test is held:
- The weapon must be assembled and having a production number of the producer
- The weapon is carefully examined to be fit for the pressure proof
- The pressure proof is held with one of two cartridges with a higher load with powder
- The weapon is examined again on signs of damage, caused by the pressure proof
- The proof marks are struck by the responsable personnel of the Proof House
But; the weapon may still be in the white, even not yet polished.
This explains the fact that the Lugers, having DWM on the toggle and also having C/N proofs and distributed by Mauser during the early 30's have a very high quality finish. Mauser used a higher standard for the final finish of pistols, also for the Luger.
The placement of the Cc/U proof stamps has been discussed deeply during the past. There are some recognizable patterns, but after having examined many pistols of the 'V' series it is my believe that the inspectors of the Poorf House struck the stamps where they thought they might be neatly found back when looking for them.
Here is an overview:
[img]images/icon_paperclip.gif[/img] ProofCN.jpg
DWM - Berlin proofstamp Crown/N
I am sorry that I do not have a good picture of the Big upright Cc/U stamp as found on the commercial Oberndorf Lugers (1934). If you have one, please send me a picture...
[img]images/icon_paperclip.gif[/img] ProofCU3620v.jpg
Mauser - Oberndorf proofstamp Crown-crown/U Banner 5 lines SN 3620v 1936
[img]images/icon_paperclip.gif[/img] ProofCU2250.jpg
Mauser - Oberndorf proofstamp Crown-crown/U Dutch Navy contract SN 2250 1937
[img]images/icon_paperclip.gif[/img] ProofCU1141.jpg
Mauser - Oberndorf proofstamp Crown-crown/U Banner Police SN 1141w 1939
[img]images/icon_paperclip.gif[/img] ProofCU2829.jpg
Mauser - Oberndorf proofstamp Crown-crown/U Banner Dutch Navy SN 2829v 1940
[img]images/icon_paperclip.gif[/img] ProofCUBarrel.jpg
The Cc/U proof mark on the barrel was mostly struck on the base of the front sight.
[img]images/icon_paperclip.gif[/img] ProofEN.jpg
Mauser - Oberndorf proofstamp Eagle/N Banner Police SN 8359y 1942 (for reference only)
Conclusions:
DWM assembled and proofed Lugers have a C/N stamp. During a short time Mauser assembled Lugers, that can have a mix of C/N and Cc/U proof stamps. In that case, the Proof House of Oberndorf stamped only the part(s) that were changed on a C/N proofed pistol.
The proof stamps were stuck with a die that was changed frequently in size and shape. The earliest commercials had a big upright Cc/U, later (between 1519v and 1534v) it became smaller, and it was struck horizontal (lazy), mostly left of the SN, sometime above, and also sometimes upright left. It seems that Mauser had no influence on the placement of the proof stamps. The Cc/U proof stamp on the barrel was mostly struck on the base of the front sight.
For the first 1.500 SN's however, the C/N or Cc/U stamp is found under the barrel, first above, later under the SN. The base of the front sight is here frequently stamped with a 'D'.
[img]images/icon_paperclip.gif[/img] GraphicProofs.jpg
Graphic of the Proof stamps found on the Serial Numbers of the 'V' series Lugers.
9. The commercial and contract Lugers known as the 'V' series.
The first job is to eliminate the pistols which have a serialization 'of their own', like the Dutch contract Lugers and that were produced by Mauser during the same period as the 'V' series.
An easy one is the Turkish Police contract. These pistols were made by Mauser during 1935. They have a Banner 8-line on the toggle, like the Portuguese GNR contract of the same year. The serial numbers went from 1 - (approx) 700. Apparently some more receivers were produced at that time, which were used later on frames having a 'v' suffix, or on frames that were produced later using a non- issued 'v' suffix SN. If you want to learn the full details of this contract, please look here: https://luger.gunboards.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8916
Another easy one is the 1936 Persian contract. These pistols had their own serialization in Farsi writing; all other texts including 'Mauser' is written in Farsi. Apparently even the latin characters normally used for factory inspection marks were not allowed; in stead a '+' is found.
The standard P.08 pistols were reportedly numbered 1 to 3000 (the first 50 were so called 'cutaways'); the long 'Artillery' Lugers were numbered 3000 - 4000. Mauser used DWM made long barrels and DWM made frames for this contract.
Three Lugers with normal serial numbers have been reported with Persian marked receivers. 17v has a DWM logo on the toggle, 2836v and 2862v have both a Banner - 5 lines logo. All have 4' 9mm barrels. This is another proof that Mauser did not throw away anything.
A more complicated separate contract are the Dutch Navy Lugers. The Dutch wanted a continuous serialization and this was respected as from the beginning of the East Indies Contract in 1913. The DWM Dutch Navy Contract started in 1928. Mauser took this contract over from DWM. The serialization was strictly followed until 1938, when Mauser added the suffix ‘V’ (as from SN 2330v). The Serial Numbers 2330v – 3254v are used twice (Portuguese GNR & Navy plus the Latvian contract). These Lugers are easy to recognize, as they have all the safety marking 'Rust'. (East Indies: arrow is pointing upwards, Navy: arrow is pointing downwards). Recent reports make us believe that there were some (late) pistols in the 1936 contract that have 1936 stamped on the receiver. There is also a 1937 dated pistol reported as having a 'v' suffix added to the serial number on the front of the frame. As soon as pictures are available of these exceptions they will be posted here.
[img]images/icon_paperclip.gif[/img] GraphicsDutch.jpg
Between the Portuguese and Latvian contracts is an almost empty space of 400 SN's. Only the two above mentioned Persian late issued pistols are found here. The whereabouts of these Lugers are yet unknown.
10. DWM-produced, sold by Mauser in 1930: 1v - 350v.
15 pistols have been reported from this range:
#17v 'Persian receiver' (DWM on toggle. Cc/U proofed)
#33v DWM on toggle C/N upright proofed, sear safety, H.P.503 on front grip. 4' 9mm
#119v Banner, Turkish Police, only one DE/63 acceptance on the right receiver.
#125v DWM on toggle C/N upright proofed, sear safety unknown, H.P.99 on front grip.
#131v DWM on toggle C/N upright proofed, sear safety.
#310v DWM on toggle C/N upright proofed. 4' 9mm barrel, marked with O 428 (no dot) on front of grip strap - no German Navy acceptance.
#320v DWM on toggle C/N & Cc/U proofed, grip safety, reworked two line Stoeger, 4'7.65mm.
8 DWM commercials 23v(Cc/U)-178v-209v-243v-244v-277v-285v-302v- (C/N)
Only the SN's 209v - 302v seem to follow a pattern of Commercial Lugers, DWM on toggle, C/N proofed, a mix of 4' and 4 3/4' barrels, all reported have 7.65mm caliber.
The book 'The Mauser Archive' (Jon Speed, 2007) gives Mauser's sales statistics for the Parabellum pistol as from the 1st of January 1930. Analyzing the first 9 months of 1930 learns that Mauser sold (invoiced) 682 Luger pistols during that period. We know from other documents that the machinery, tools, pistol parts and assembled pistols arrived during the month of May, 1930 in Oberndorf. The first order that was assembled and finished by August Weiss were 10 pistols for A.F. Stoeger in New York (SN's 515v-524v). The next assembly was for 302 pistols ordered by the Dutch Navy; but these were delivered and invoiced in November 1930.
It must be concluded that Mauser invoiced 672 pistols that were:
- produced and delivered by DWM between January - April from Berlin or
- produced by DWM and delivered by Mauser between May - September.
Of course, all those pistols were proofed in Berlin (C/N).
The new insight is that the BKIW holding ordered DWM not only to end the production on December 31, 1929; but also the sales organisation.
11. Peruvian contract: 351v - 399v.
6 are authenticated, 373v-378v-380v-394v-399v have a 4' 9mm barrel and are C/N proofed, 393v has a 8” 9mm barrel and is Cc/U proofed.
DWM on toggle, no special markings found.
12. The Stoeger 3 lines series.
Two batches here: 400v-524v, 559v-573v. Many reported and authenticated.
Mixed barrels: 4”-15”, Calibers 7.65/9mm
There are two variations, with and without the word ‘genuine’ stamped before the 3rd line.
It is assumed that ‘genuine’ was stamped by Stoeger in New York, as I have a copy of a letter written by Alexander Stoeger (08-28-1930) in which he states that Mauser forgot to stamp the word 'genuine' before the third line (on the right rail of the frame) of the 10 Lugers that came to New York. I do not know for sure, but it seems that DWM nor Mauser was tempted to stamp this keyword on any of the Lugers they produced. A reason could have been that if the Stoeger Lugers would have been marked 'genuine' all others would have been 'non genuine'.
In fact, the first order that Mauser had to fullfil (May 1930) was the delivery of these 10 Lugers to Stoeger. It is not known why August Weiss took the last ten pistols (515v-524v) from the 125 Stoeger marked pistols that came from DWM (400v-524v), but he noted this in his dairy, it is too precise to doubt it. It is interesting to know that the pistols having the 'Genuine' stamp, have crimped steel nickled magazines, while most of the pistols that were sold later (and do not have the 'genuine' marking) have blued crimped magazines.
The pistols without ‘genuine’ were probably sold by Mauser to other clients. Many of these Lugers have been found back in Israel, they were delivered in 1937/1938 to the Electric Company of Palestine. Recently a most interesting pistol has been reported, having a receiver & barrel with SN 514v, mounted on a (DWM) frame with SN 8735. (See also chapter 25 for the 8725v - 8750v serial range).
As to the 3 lined Stoegers, most have the Crown/U proof mark on the receiver, breech block and barrel. A few are observed, having the Cc/U proof on the barrel. It is likely that these pistols have been mounted by Mauser with other barrel lengths or calibers; the Stoeger Firm ordered always a mix of all kinds of them.
Also, a few pistols have been reported having no proof mark on the barrel. This concerns a barrel change that occured in the U.S.A., most probably done by Stoeger as there were some 6 different barrels advertised in the Stoeger Catalogs of that time. Clients could send their Luger to Stoeger in New York, the price of this service was $ 1.- (plus the costs of the barrel).
13. The early Swiss - model batches.
As the 'Swiss model' had a grip safety and therefore many appliances on the machinery had to be changed, Mauser made batches of these frames.
525v-550v, 590v-600v, 1873v-1919v are the first three recognizable Swiss batches in the 'V' series. These are solidly reported with many pistols. All have 4 ¾”-7.65mm barrels, but not all do have the Swiss Cross in sunburst on the chamber, and some have the word 'Gesichert' which was normally not stamped for Swiss destinations, as the Swiss prefered to have a 'blank' space instead.
14. The 'Oberndorf' commercial Lugers.
Properties: DWM highly polished toggle, upright Cc/U proof, no Serial Number on receiver, 4”-9mm barrel, assembled by Mauser from DWM parts. Serial Numbers between 630v - 1506v, of which 30 pistols have been reported. Estimated production: 750.
Within this range, also some Swiss and Stoegers pistols were found (7).
15. Conclusion Serial Numbers 1v - 1600v:
The first 1600 pistols of the 'V' Series reflect the rather unorganized start of Mauser's heritage of the DWM Luger production. So far no full Mauser made Lugers are found. Some pistols have C/N proofed parts, some have mixed C/N and Cc/U parts, and the last series have all Cc/U proofed parts.
[img]images/icon_paperclip.gif[/img] Graphics1-1600.jpg
Graphic overview of the 'V' Series 1v - 1600v.
In the upper band you can see the contracts or the destination that has been found.
Underneath you can see the properties of the toggle-logo, the barrel band, the frame, the proof marks and the years during which the corresponding Lugers were distributed.
Legend of the colors used in the upper band:
Uncolored: 'U' = unknown
Light Green: 'C' = commercial
Dark Green: 'Pu' = Peruvian contract
Purple: 'Stgr' = Stoeger three lines contract
Dark Blue: 'S' = Swiss model
Orange: = Oberndorf commercials
The Grey colored part of the other bands indicate a mayor change. 'B8' = Banner 8 lines.
16. Turkish Army (officers) contract (1936/37.
As seen before with the Turkish Police contract, Mauser's Turkish contracts keep the Luger student very busy. It is not easy to understand why Mauser used serial numbers in the ‘V’ series, that were apparently left over in 1934 and 1935, for a contract that obviously was produced and delivered in the first months of 1937. Furthermore, the fact that there is an double appearance of acceptance stamps, Droop winged Eagle/63 under the blue, and Stick winged Eagle/63 'over the blue' is intriguing too. It seems that the production of these Lugers was done in two separate stages, with two separate acceptance procedures too.
Very few are reported so it is difficult to establish a firm list of the properties of this contract. In the serial range 1596v – 1872v three such Lugers having 1936 on the chamber are reported, but also two undated Banner 8 lines Commercials. It could be that this is the range where the Turkish Army Lugers belong - but in view of the very few pistols that are reported this is absolutely not certain.
Three more 1936 dated Turkish Army Lugers are found as 'orphans' in the 1935 Portuguese 1921v – 2500v range. It seems that Mauser used this contract for a cleaning up of serial numbers not yet used in 1936. As usual there is also at least one 'out or range' Luger, one indeed is reported having the correct receiver; this pistol has serial number 6829v and has also a 1937 date on the chamber.
17. The first Portuguese Contracts, GNR & Navy.
1921v – 2500v: GNR Portuguese Gendarmerie, 4 3/4' 7.65mm, GNR on chamber, grip safety, SEGURANCA in low position under the safety lever and CARREGADO marked on the left side of the extractor, Banner 8 lines on toggle, lazy Cc/U left of serial number on receiver. 137 Pistols have been reported.
2501v – 2571v: Portuguese Navy, 4' 9mm, no chamber marking, SEGURANCA and CARREGADO marked, Banner 8 lines on toggle, lazy Cc/U left of SN on receiver; 5 are reported (but 10 more are recently reported within the GNR range).
4301v – 4351v: Portuguese Navy, identical to the above; 6 are reported.
Mauser's Portuguese contracts batches are quite solid. Especially the GNR contract, where all but 15 reported Pistols are exactly as expected.
Reinhard Kornmayer reported in 1969 that Portuguese files confirmed the reception of 564 Lugers in 1935. Within the serial range of 1921v - 2500v there is space for 579 pistols, so 15 pistols might indeed not have been 'GNR' models. So far I have found back five non - Portuguese of these 15 missing pistols:
3 Turkish Army as seen above: 2131v, 2176v, 2179v. 2 Commercials, 2281v (dated 1937) and 2421v (dated 1938).
Recently ten Lugers have been reported that must be added to the 564 pistols that went to Portugal. It concerns Portuguese NAVY contract Lugers, having a 4' - 9mm barrel, 8 lined Banner on the toggle and 'SEGURANCA' and 'CARREGADO' like on the GNR pistols. There is no marking on the chamber. It might have been sample/test pistols for the Navy.
Reported SN's are: 2296v, 2297v, 2298v, 2483v, 2484v, 2485v, 2486v, 2487v, 2488v and 2489v.
It is tempting to make a calculation: there are 579 numbers between 1921v and 2500v. If we deduct the 15 pistols that do not belong to the GNR contract we find the number of 564. That corresponds with the number reported from Portuguese sources.
18. 2602v-3450v: a very misty range...
Only ten pistols out of 848 have emerged from this range...
Reportedly (Datig, Costanzo, Walter): 3001v – 3450v should be a Latvian contract (450 pistols) but why are so very few found back? SN's 3001v, 3160v, 3217v, 3240v, 3265v, 3272v, 3294v, 3390v and 3450v is all that has been reported, plus one 'Swiss' model having SN 3446v.
The range between the last Portuguese (2570v) and the first so called Latvian contract (3001v) is empty. No reports are noted apart from the two Persian receivers on frames having the SN’s 2836v and 2862v as stated above. It might be that Mauser skipped this range because of the Dutch Navy contract (see 9. above). I simply do not know.
About SN 3001v - 3450v, the previously described Latvian contract; I would like to know where these pistols went too? All the Lugers that were kept in the former Soviet Union came to Western Europe now, so the story that the Latvian Lugers were taken away by the Soviets in 1939 is not yet proved.
Apart from one solitary Swiss model (# 3446v) the very few (8) reported pistols all have a 4” 9mm barrel and 1936 on the chamber.
19. Conclusion Serial Numbers 1600v - 3450v.
[img]images/icon_paperclip.gif[/img] Graphics1601-3450.jpg
Top left we have the remaining Commercial pistols of the Banner 8 lines of the previous page. The next contract concerns the Turkish Army Lugers which are very scarcely reported. As this batch was produced later, the appearance of these Lugers is quite different from the surrounding batches. Next are the Portuguese contracts, they run to SN 2571v. After these, we run into 'Terra Incognita'. Only 3 pistols have been reported, of which two Persian banners. Also from the so called Latvian contract only very few pistols emerged.
Legend:
Uncolored: 'U' = unknown
Light Green: 'C' = commercial
Light Blue: 'TA' = Turkish Army (presumed)
Dark Blue: 'S' = Swiss model
Red: = Portuguese GNR & Navy contracts
Yellow: = Latvian contract
The Grey colored part of the bands indicates a change. 'ML' = Mauser long frame, no hump.
Please note: I had to do some magic to get the slides of my Napca - presentation into this thread. The colored sections + black text in the bands of the graphic shifted a bit to the right, sorry for that.
20. The Siamese contracts
Update March 2007 after a deep study of the Odin files.
I could add the serial numbers that were found on the orphan magazines and stocks that were found with the pistols of this import.
3453v – 3552v: Siamese Artilleries, 81 reported out of 100 Chamber date 1936.
Siamese 4” P.08 like Lugers, a total 137 - 140 pistols was delivered by Mauser in 7 batches:
4041v-4100v, 33 reported out of 60 (1936 - 1937)
4121v-4130v, 3 reported out of 10 (1936)
4201v-4220v, 15 reported out of 20 (1937)
4231v-4240v, 4 reported out of 10 (1936)
4370v-4385v, 7 reported out of 16 (1937)
4559v-4560v, 2 reported out of 2 (1937)
4580v-4595v 12 reported out of 16 (1937)
Yes, the Siamese are ugly, these Lugers were used by the Bangkok Police between 1936 and 1980, in tropically and humid circumstances. As from the moment they were offered in the USA by ODIN International, the Luger collectors did not like them very much.
It was not easy to get reports on the Thai markings that can be found above the lanyard loop on the back. I managed to check fifteen pistols, learning that the Siamese were very precise in applying their property numerals, as they seem to follow the arrival of the several batches in Siam. Using that system I found out that the number of short Lugers could not exceed 140.
The first Thai marking has number 195 (on long Luger # 3453v).
The last Thai marking has number 479 (on short Luger 4595v).
The corrected batches are shown above.
Might you have a Siamese contract, please send me its Serial Number plus a detailed picture of the back of the frame. It would be helpful for me to check if my theory still holds.
21. Swiss 'model' batch 3600v-3900v.
As seen before, Mauser produced 'batches' of frames for the 'Swiss Model' (4 3/4' - 7.65mm, grip safety).
Somewhere during 1936 300 'Swiss' frames were made by Mauser. At that moment, it must have represented just a full day's production, as Mauser had enhanced the capacity of the Luger lines in Hall 'D' according to the military demand.
48 pistols are reported, only 1/3 has a Swiss Cross marking.
Proof markings: Cc/U-(31), E/N-(13), BP-(4). The last pistols were proofed 1940 - 1942, as the Eagle /N proof stamp came into use after the new German legislation (end of 1939, effective as from January 1940).
Within this serial range are only a few non-Swiss model Lugers: 2 Palestine 1936 dated (3611v + 3620v), 2 commercials (3629v + 3694v). These four pistols have 4” 9mm barrels and are Cc/U proofed.
Added 05-23-2008: Examination of 7 'Swiss' models in this range makes me believe that some of the frames came from the stock of DWM parts. Worker markings inside the wells of the frames are certainly not 'Mauser style'. This batch is in need for further research.
22. The Palestine 'contracts'.
As recently has been discovered, the Electric Company of Palestine ordered in 1936/1937 some hundred Lugers to arm their security forces, all with a 4”-7.65mm barrel. The order(s) were given to the Mauser Agent in Haifa, named Rahmani. As a Arab uprising (1936 - 1939) just had started, an urgent delivery was asked for.
The following pistols were delivered (but I do not know how and by whom);
SN's 4936v-5024v, 89 pistols, it is possible that a few pistols within this range stayed in Germany (or Latvia), as one pistol has been reported earlier from the USA (5001v, having bleud small parts). Of these pistols 22 have been reported from Israel.
Also went to Palestine: at least 16, probable more, 3 lines Stoegers not having the word 'genuine' on the right rail of the frame.
But, a still increasing number of Lugers are also recently reported from Israel, all dated 1936 or 1937. Many of the serial numbers were before thought belonging to the 'Latvian' contracts: 3554v, 3611v, 3620v, 4108v, 4141v, 4359v, 4363v, 4419v, 4497v, 4555v, 4609v, 4612v, 4637v, 4759v.
Eitan Feldmann, former Luger collector in Israel, told me that these pistols were bought by the 'Haganah' - the secret self defence army of the Jewish community in Palestine at that time. All these are fairly standard commercials, having a 4' 9mm barrel and they are Cc/U proofed. The banners are of the 5 lines type.
One Luger (3554v) is rather special, it has a DWM made but Cc/U proofed 8' Artillery barrel. This SN is just 2 digits above the last reported Siamese Artillery...
If you want to read more about the Lugers that were reported from Israel, and also some back ground history about it, have a look at: https://luger.gunboards.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4947
23. Conclusion Serial Numbers 3452v - 5025v.
[img]images/icon_paperclip.gif[/img] Graphics3451-5025.jpg
Top left we find the 100 Siamese Artillery contract Lugers. Mauser used BWM barrels and frames here. Next come 50 SN's in which just one pistol is found, the above marked Palestinian Artillery, I marked it 'U' for unknown.
The next block of 300 pistols is definetely a Swiss model batch, look at the various proof stamps found here.
Between 3900v and 4000v only two pistols are reported (a Commercial SN 3906v drilled for a sear safety, and the first Police Eagle/L that is found - SN 3939v having a sear safety. Both are 1939 dated}.
Between 4000v and 4300v we find three batches of commercial Lugers, around two barches of short Siamese Lugers.
As from 4301v to 4350v the second batch of Portuguese Navies are found.
Between 4351v and 4360v Palestine Lugers are found, followed by another Siamese short Luger batch.
Fram 4419v to 4559v there is a mix of commercials, Latvians, two reportedly Swedish and one lonely Military proofed banner.
The last Siamese short pistol batch runs from 4559v to 4598v, followed by Latvians until SN 4710v.
Next a batch of commercial Lugers follows until SN 4936v, when we encounter a firm batch of 89 pistols, that have been found back as Palestine Lugers.
Legend:
Uncolored: 'U' = unknown
Pink: 'Siam or S' = Siamese contracts
Dark Green: 'C' = commercial
Dark Blue: 'S' = Swiss model
Red: = Portuguese GNR & Navy contracts
Dark Brown: 'P' = found in Israel, Palestine deliveries 1937
Yellow: = Latvian contract
The Grey colored part of the bands indicates a mayor change.
Please pay attention to the jumping years of issue on the band below. This implies that a Serial Number on a Mauser Banner can not be used for a secure estimate of the time that it left the factory.
24. Serial Numbers 5025v - 7000v: Commercials, Latvia, S/42 and Swedish Military.
SN's 5036v-5211v are again 'Latvians'; 4” 7.65 + 9mm barrels, 17 reported; 2 of them have blued small parts, the mayority has strawed small parts.
Now we arrive at the strange group of Lugers that do not have banners but 'S/42' on the toggle. They do have the commercial Cc/U proof stamps however, none has been reported to have a sear safety or a drilled hole for one. No military acceptance either, just the Cc/U proof stamps. Interesting to note is also, that the full batch of SN's 5271v - 5527v, has 4” 9mm barrels, blued small parts, and all are 1938 dated. Were these 256 pistols delivered to a para - military organization? Or had Mauser simply no stock left of toggles marked with the Banner 5 lines as used tot this point?
Fact is however that tje Banner 7 lines is for the first time found on serial number 5569v. This Banner would be used to the end of the commercial production of Mauser Lugers.
The last batch of 'Latvians' is coming next: SN's 5611v-5659v, all 4” barrels, but two calibers are reported, 7.65 + 9mm. These pistols have 1939 on the chamber. Please bear in mind that Hitler and Stalin signed a non agression pact on August 29 1939, two days before Germany attacked Poland, and Stalin got the green light to conquer the Baltic states (including Latvia).
I am not convinced that all pistols that were registered by August Weiss in his dairies as produced for Latvia, really were destined to stay there. We know that a good part of them went to Palestine, it might well be that Latvia served as a gateway for sending Lugers to countries that were on the Third Reich's 'black list'. I tried to find back some information about a person named 'Muscatas' who was the Mauser agent during the thirties in Riga, Latvia. I even laid hands on the Latvian Telephone Dairy of 1936. I have worked through all pages, and I have found a few names like Maskatas and Muscatas. There are no indications that one of them was an arms broker.
We arrive at the Swedish contract(s). The serial numbers go from 5660v to 5975v here. The Swedish wanted to modernize their sidearms, being a neutral country for a long time, the Germans had no objections to deliver weapons to them. It is presumed that the Swedish Military ordered some 300 Lugers for test purposes. The first batch is well documented, SN's 5701v - 5979v for 275 pistols, having 4 3/4' 9mm barrels. Apparently, some more were delivered, a few having 4 3/4' 7.65mm barrels, all have 1938 on the chamber.
Within the lower range I found SN's 5660v and 5667v, both having 4' 7.65mm barrels, strawed small parts, and 1939 on the chamber. This barrel lenght was not mentioned in earlier publications. One of these was recently found in Sweden and advertized as 'Swedish Military'.
There is a rather firm confirmation of the 4' - 9mm Swedish Lugers. Within the mentioned main batch eight pistols have been reported.
After the Swedish contract we face a long and solid range of Commercial Banners. As from 6000v to 7000v we find only 4' - 9mm barrels, all have the Banner 7 line on the toggle, a consistent Cc/U proofing and 1937 on the chamber. From the 48 pistols reported, only two have bleud small parts.
[img]images/icon_paperclip.gif[/img] Graphics5025-7000.jpg
After all the turmoil of the lower serial numbers within the 'V' series, we see here a rather quiet pattern. The only disturbing element is again the overview of the years during which the Lugers were issued.
Furthermore, the position of the Cc/U proof changes from time to time. It is my opninion that the inspectors liked to stamp it on the receiver, 'lazy' left of the serial number. When there was no enough space to do that, they struck it above the serial number.
Legend:
Dark Brown: 'P' = Palestine (last 25 pistols of batch found in previous graphic)
Yellow: 'Lt'or Latvia = Latvian contracts
Dark Green: Commercials
Light Blue: Swedish Military contract.
25. The remaining serial numbers in the 'V' series: 7001v - 9732v.
It certainly looks like Mauser made up his mind, as the first thousand pistols of this group mainly are Banner - Police Lugers. They have the Eagle/K acceptance stamp on the front of the right receiver, and also the commercial proof stamp Cc/U (lazy) on the left receiver, the base of the front sight and the left side of the breech block. Also a sear safety is mounted.
Reported are 83 pistols, of which only 3 are commercials without a sear safety, they also have strawed small parts (SN's 7218v - has SE/655 acceptance stamps, it is a 1940 dated Dutch Navy(!), 7283v and 7400v, this last one has a 4 3/4' 7.65mm barrel). It is tempting to presume that these Lugers were rejected by the Police inspectors - it might be that Mauser used the frames to mount later another receiver/barrel combination on it, like the Dutch Navy.
Of the remaining reported 80 Police marked pistols only three have strawed parts.
The range of SN 8001v - 8724v show commercial Banners. Only few have been found back - 22 pistols are reported. Most of these have 4'- 9mm barrels, 3 are Swiss models with a grip safety and 4 3/4'- 7.65 barrels, there is also one lonely Police Eagle/K pistol (SN 8056v).
Now we come to a most intriguing small group of totally outplaced pistols. These are the SN's 8725v - 8750v. You will not believe it, but within this bunch of 25 Lugers we find DWM marked toggles, C/N proofed, mostly Stoeger 3 lines receivers. The only explanation is, that Mauser had some Stoeger receivers without frames laying around. As the chambers are marked with the American Eagle, we do not have a strong proof of the date that this 'cleaning up' operation was achieved. We do know however, that SN's 8732v and 8739 (indeed without a 'v' suffix) were found back in Israel, they came to the Electric Cy. of Palestine in 1937/1938; they are on a letter, confirming their use since 1938.
Recently another 3 lined Stoeger has been reported, have a receiver & barrel with SN 514v - mounted on a DWM frame having Sn 8735 (no 'v' suffix).
Another surprise is the Turkish Army receiver, mounted on a frame that has SN 8735v. I can't help thinking that this was another cleaning - up operation organized by Mauser. They did not throw away anything...
The end of the 'V' series is not very glorious. Within SN's 8756v and 9732v only 16 Lugers are reported. Seven are Commercials and nine are Police (3 Eagle/K and 6 Eagle F). All have 4' - 9mm barrels, Cc/U proofing, and blued small parts. All have 1939 on the chamber.
There is one exception however, SN 9014v is a Turkish Air Force marked Luger, with strawed small parts. Only one other Luger has been found with the same receiver, but that is (again) a pistol that has been assembled by Mauser (using an Erfurt frame) as a gift for a worker that passed a jubilee. (Rolf Gminder information).
No pistols have been reported having a SN above # 9732v. I do not know if there were any, as we should notice that during 1939 also the 'W' series and even the 'X' series were launched by Mauser.
[img]images/icon_paperclip.gif[/img] Graphics7001-9999.jpg
Left above you see the 1000 pistols batch that went to the German Police.
Next we find the commercials which run to SN 8725v.
The next 25 pistols are clearly a cleaning up operation of remaining old receivers (Stoeger, 1 Turkish Army). As this is a mix up of old parts, you find a 'X' in the bands that indicate the properties.
The last batch consists of Commercial and Police Lugers. Here we see for the first tume the Eagle/F acceptance stamp.
Nu pistols are reported to have a serial number higher then 9732v. May be they were produced, may be not.
Legend:
Light Green: Police Lugers Eagle/K
Dark Green: Commercials
Grey: mixed batches, no clear pattern.
No color: Unknown
Please notice that the years in the lowest band are consistent now, but remember that this is not the case for the small batch indicated with a 'X'.
This is the end of my first report about the Mauser 'V' series.
Please allow me to express my gratitude to the collectors that helped me during my research by giving me invaluable information or assistance with the difficult to understand subjects I had to overcome.
Don Hallock - his database on the Banners is a treasure of information. He assisted me all the time; we are working together very closely.
Gerben van Vlimmeren (Vlim) - he gave me lots of information on the DWM - Mauser - Luger moving.
Dwight Gruber - his consistent attitude to find the facts (no theories) urged me to go to the basics of the German proof laws.
Jim Cate - (he wrote the chapter about the banners in Costanzo's book) gave me his latest findings.
Richard Kornmayer - he gave me lots of information and also copies of the letters between Mauser, BKIW and Stoeger.
Geoff Sturgess - he assisted me during the research of the Turkish Lugers.
Eitan Feldmann and Gad Teperson from Israel for the information about the Electric Company of Palestine and the armament of the Haganah.
Pete Ebbing, Martin Krause, Doug Wirt and Lee Gentile for giving or finding the data I needed.
Last but not least, the many collectors on this Forum that gave me the properties of the Lugers having a 'V' suffix for my survey. Please - go on to do so, this chapter of Luger research is not yet finished (if it will ever be...).
Copyright
Please, respect the uncountable hours that I spended in gathering this information, taking the pictures, making the graphics - you are invited to read everything, but do not copy text or images for distribution. Thank you.